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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.21 07:17:00 -
[1]
I'm concerned with the recent rash of rather small time IPO's. What I'm thinking is that a few months ago someone got it their head they could scam the market with IPO's and set about making characters for that purpose.
This all may be mere coincidence, but I don't believe in coincidences. For this to work all the IPOs would need to be opened at relatively the same time to avoid spooking the investors with the first scam. The investors are not intimidated by the small IPOs because they are not loosing that much and essentially write it off from the beginning.
Unfortunately if one entity is behind these recent small fry IPOs then they will stand to make a decent windfall with the sacrifice of some otherwise throw away characters.
I think the market of investors has become too complacent with the recent lack of any real scam IPO.
Below is a screenshot of the employment history for recent IPO issuers.
Screenshot
Note: Genbuku has not filed an IPO, but the name and portrait were way to similar to Genbukan.
All of the above is why I won't be investing in any player corp in the near future.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.21 07:32:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Shadarle
I've been thinking the same thing. Though a few of the recent ones have found ways to guarantee their investments... so it would seem they aren't scams. But there definitely have been a lot of small ones and all of them have a somewhat similar feel to them. They all seem fairly trustworthy off-hand.
I am being very limited in my investments because of this.
Sheep among wolves.
//I realize I'm probably not making any friends with those holders, but that is their problem more then mine.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.21 09:09:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kitex
One thing I do know is that I don't want investments in EVE, most of which are generated through this forum, to turn into an exclusive club where those who have not previously run multi-billion isk IPO's need not apply. There are plenty of safe options out there at 5-10%, and I own a few of them. But I'd almost rather take a risk with the new guy who's fresh and eager and has a solid plan, and can offer 15-20%.
All I can do is trust my gut.
I actually fought against this "club" tooth and nail. I think Hexxx originally suggested it almost a year ago or so. I don't want one group of people having the say over whose IPO does and doesn't make it. What evolved from that are the particular questions every holder is expected to answer when they make their business plan. Then this forum picks apart their posts. Some people fold under the pressure and try to delete their posts about the IPO attempting to remove record of them.
I don't feel I'm being overly paranoid. I see patterns in things, when I notice a pattern I pay attention even more so. This is one of those cases. For some reason there have been an unusually large amount of IPOs lately. This could be due to recent attention this forum has received because of the new economist and other blog type things.
If none of these holders turn out to be scammers it makes no difference. What I do fear is people seeing how easy it is to drum up a couple billion through a fake IPO.
All I'm really asking for is a significant time investment in a reputation before asking people to invest. This problem can be laid at the feet of the investors who jumped on these bandwagons.
My personal pet peeve is: "I just recently discovered the market, help me buy a freighter so I can make billions."
To this I say anyone who needs a freighter has the means to buy it. If you don't have those means its likely you don't need a freighter and should be doing something else instead.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.21 09:33:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tivern Maniva
Originally by: Dr Slurm
My personal pet peeve is: "I just recently discovered the market, help me buy a freighter so I can make billions."
To this I say anyone who needs a freighter has the means to buy it. If you don't have those means its likely you don't need a freighter and should be doing something else instead.
Would use pen and paper to do complex maths if a calculator could cut down time and effort and be a damn site more productive ?
Im a strong enthusiast in using every available resource to gain success. I wouldn't fight in an ibis when theres an opportunty to use a carrier would you ?
So you're saying its pointless to learn how to do math on paper? Interesting.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.21 13:43:00 -
[5]
I don't see much connection between any of the characters in the screen shot other then gebuku/gebukan. I posted a screen shot of them all to say "Look at these people you are giving a couple billion".
Like Shar, I really question cinderbrood's long corp history. I'd like to point out this could still easily be a scam. He may be secured for 2bill, but as soon as the corp is worth more then that it becomes a moot point.
I suspect Ambo bought his character, but skill points could prove that wrong.
Rhiraven I had no conclusions on. I suspect that IPO is more well intended.
If there isn't a scam in this bunch, probably not from the looks of it, there will be a scam soon. This community will invest in anyone who can spin the right story.
Call me paranoid. I don't really care, but I do enjoy saying I told you so. Its best if I am wrong.
Originally by: Tivern Maniva
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Tivern Maniva
Originally by: Dr Slurm
My personal pet peeve is: "I just recently discovered the market, help me buy a freighter so I can make billions."
To this I say anyone who needs a freighter has the means to buy it. If you don't have those means its likely you don't need a freighter and should be doing something else instead.
Would use pen and paper to do complex maths if a calculator could cut down time and effort and be a damn site more productive ?
Im a strong enthusiast in using every available resource to gain success. I wouldn't fight in an ibis when theres an opportunity to use a carrier would you ?
So you're saying its pointless to learn how to do math on paper? Interesting.
Not pointless no but given the opportunity to advance why not do so. If we stuck with what we knew best we would still be catching our food and eating it raw. did u start out in life catching food before u progressed to the supermarket shopping lark. Just to make sure u had a damn firm grasp on the base of it ?
Because just like learning how to do math on paper before using a calculator you have to learn the basics. Learning enough to get yourself your own freighter and the capital to fill is part of that. If you can't make that much on your own why should you deserve someone's borrowed isk?
Or the other instance I love: "I just blew all my capital on a freighter, now I don't have enough ISK to fill it. Please invest in my IPO." Why in the hell would you invest in someone so fiscally irresponsible is beyond me.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.21 18:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tivern Maniva
Tou'che I think u got me on that one im outta responses i need sleep soon >.>
i just want a response from Dr Slurm with his reasons ;S no doubght ill get them due time. Not that i hold any sort of personal grudge. Just curiosity ..
I've already explained my doubt in your own IPO thread. The fact that you are secured with EBANK really doesn't make much of a difference to me. It just sets the bar for the scam higher.
As for my own corp history every corp I've been in I was either the CEO or a director. Some corps were loose associations with friends, but otherwise I've mostly been solo except for my alts. I can't see my history cause I'm at work.
@Hexxx: I fought against the Standards body because I didn't want it to be the cool kids club. It essentially came around anyways, but anyone can join in on the fun and not a select body. Although if any of the regulars here say don't invest I would be surprised if anyone did.
As for your IPO template, I really did like it in itself. I just didn't like the availability of a template to a would be scammer.
I'm almost sorry I started this thread, but not really. I was in a pretty snarky mood when I created it.
The thought did occur to me create an IPO with the intent of it being a fake scam. Like create an alt post a whine asking for ISK, get the investment, and then say hey you were just scammed. Then of course give the ISK back. Would be a bit of a wake up call to some.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.22 20:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Originally by: Dr Slurm
I've already explained my doubt in your own IPO thread. The fact that you are secured with EBANK really doesn't make much of a difference to me. It just sets the bar for the scam higher.
A person scamming corporate dividends totalling maybe 100m when he could have scammed 1.8b when he had those funds... This makes no sense. The only way I could agree with you and Shar in a limited fashion would be in that the next IPO he does (if any) may be bigger and better, and lead to a scam. Having said that, he is well aware that he will need a whole new/updated business plan and probably more security protocols in play.
As soon as the the value of the business exceeds that of the secured amount by twice as much its moot.
Quote:
Frankly, I want to see these new guys get their feet wet. I want them to start small and work their way up the food chain. Sure, some may ultimately turn into a scam, but I feel for every scammer there are 5 other legitimate players trying to follow the same path. We need to guide these people, remove or limit the reasons or ways they may want or be inclined to scam. We cannot just ignore all the new blood as it does enhance our market sector. For every scam that has occured in these forums over the years, a new security protocol or requirement has been provided to try and limit the same thing happening again.
I want to see new guys invest (time, not isk) a little themselves in the community before they ask for hand outs. Its really just that simple. Instead we have nobodies asking for and receiving investment. Personally I've been mulling an IPO over for over a year now. I still haven't come to a conclusion because I can't think how to secure it such a manor that I can keep working. (Although with the advent of EBANK it gave me some ideas.)
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@Hexxx: I fought against the Standards body because I didn't want it to be the cool kids club. It essentially came around anyways, but anyone can join in on the fun and not a select body. Although if any of the regulars here say don't invest I would be surprised if anyone did.
So you don't want new people or even existing ones without specific MD reputation to start ventures because of the inherent risks involved but you are also against a governing body in place to try and weed out the bad ones? Should all future IPO's etc be removed instead?
I've invested a significant amount of my time building a decent rep here. I feel that new people I've never even seen post in this forum before have no business releasing an IPO. And that is exactly why I don't welcome their IPO's with open arms. I don't support a governing body because it is open to abuse with no balance to counteract that. Instead the regulars on this forum pick apart an IPO and ask questions. The process that has evolved is very good. There isn't a specific body, but the community as a whole does a good job to weed out the bad IPO's. IPO's should absolutely not be removed (not that they could anyways). They are a key part to this market.
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Maybe you can advise who you believe fits the criteria of starting up a personal venture. I am very interested in hearing this.
Not to mince words, but this is about public ventures. I would say a good criteria for an IPO would be:
* Be ingame bare minimum of 3 months, preferably a year. This doesn't mean no alts, just playing Eve for at least that long.
* Participate in this community, which means no lurking. Its a lot easier to judge people when you have a good sampling of how they interact with others.
* Provide the identity of your main character to public or at least a secure third party.
continued...
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.22 21:07:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Quote:
The thought did occur to me create an IPO with the intent of it being a fake scam. Like create an alt post a whine asking for ISK, get the investment, and then say hey you were just scammed. Then of course give the ISK back. Would be a bit of a wake up call to some.
The funny thing is, you probably wouldn't get any investors. Most new businesses that start up here for half decent amounts of isk (ie above 500m) are grilled pretty hard or required to undergo certain security mechanisms before the investors start looking twice at them. Quite possibly your post of a scam IPO would result in minimal or zero response from the public, and it may be you getting the wakeup call 
No scams have happened in quite some time. I believe this has a lot to do with the firing squad and most scammers not being able to withstand it or *****ing under pressure, or not having the consistency to complete their business.
I am sure there are some ventures out there that have been legit and we have turned away, but the results are there. Zero succesful scams in our part of the forums for a good 5-10 months considering we quash approximately 1-5 businesses a week.
I think you seriously underestimate my ability. But if that were the result I would be happy with the effort put it into the attempt.
My point of this thread I guess was that it has become far too easy to get a couple of billion isk on a character that is otherwise unheard of. Which is really dangerous in my opinion. It will attract those who are lazy and want hand outs. Nothing good will come of that.
I'll back off from the assertion of these IPOs all being scammers, but I would like to know why there has been a sudden burst of people begging for ISK.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Lets see..
We got:
*FUD? Check!
*Paranoia? Theres enough for everybody here!
*Conspiracy theories? I think this thread IS a conspiracy to get small guys out of business.
This is becomming the new CAOD 
Conspiracies are covert. I've been upfront with all my viewpoints in this thread. I really don't believe someone deserves investment if they haven't put their time in here. But if that's the way you want to look at it, tough ****.
Originally by: Tivern Maniva
Originally by: Dr Slurm
I've already explained my doubt in your own IPO thread. The fact that you are secured with EBANK really doesn't make much of a difference to me. It just sets the bar for the scam higher.
Well thanks for the Response. Would u be willing to sit and chat with me ingame. Altho Your not an investor im still curious as to what exactly causes you to think my ipo is a scam. rather than spam the forums will more junk not really relevent to the topic at hand. Id quite like to know how u would suggest either 1. Improving the Quality of the ipo so as to reduce the chance of a scam. or 2. New methods of securing it so i cannot scam.
No, I'm not really interested. I've judged you to the point that I think it would just be helping do the opposite. I could be wrong, but once again, that's not really my problem.
I can't say I read much the coin flipping argument, but there is a large flaw in everyone who posted about thats theory. When you flip a coin there aren't just two results, you do have to account for the very slim chance that it will land on edge. Also each flip in itself can't be taken into consideration when calculating the chance of the next flip. They really have nothing to do with each other. Roulette works in the same principle.
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I went out to the bar after work yesterday.
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